Political Dugout

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Re: Political Dugout

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:20 am

I don't think the Iran deal can be re-negotiated. It's a multi-Nation deal, unlikely other Nations will re-open it.

I think the approach may need to be that they've violated it, allowing the US to institute new sanctions. However, I think the UN would have to be involved and/or the US could only initiate sanctions impacting only the US.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Tulcard » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:04 am

Re-negotiation with Iran? Involve the useless UN? Cut up the Iran deal. We have to do what is best for the United States and our allies. Iran has been given enough already to the tune of lifting sanctions and billions of dollars. Enough is enough!
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:47 pm

The Iran deal is DONE, the $$ has been paid, trade is already occurring with other countries, etc., etc..

We can tear up OUR component of the Deal and walk away but that doesn't mean much in the big picture.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Tulcard » Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:32 pm

There is no deal. Never was. They haven't lived up to any portion of their end....if there was anything to live up to. Administration just forked over $$ for no apparent reason....and don't tell me it was for $$ owed to them from days gone by. That's nonsense. We will never know the truth here.

I'd be fully ready to impose sanctions in a heavy duty way....and insist our allies back us.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby R27 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:04 pm

Tulcard wrote:I'd be fully ready to impose sanctions in a heavy duty way....and insist our allies back us.

What allies? The ones in NATO? Which Trump seems to want to get out of?
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Tulcard » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:40 am

Granted, oBOMBa did, or has alienated our allies. Trump will need to re-establish relationships. Do I really need to list them for you or do you want to remain sarcastic? We need to do what is in the best interest for OUR Country.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby R27 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:46 am

Tulcard wrote:Granted, oBOMBa did, or has alienated our allies. Trump will need to re-establish relationships. Do I really need to list them for you or do you want to remain sarcastic? We need to do what is in the best interest for OUR Country.

I am legitimately asking what allies you think we're talking about. Because most of our allies are allies due to membership in NATO, which Trump has repeatedly stated he's interested in leaving if they don't restructure it to his liking. So it sounds to me like Trump is the one trying to alienate our allies (actually, in many of the same ways Obama has).

If Obama has alienated our allies, it's because he's insisted that they should play a larger role in their own defense and security. He had to pressure the UK into upping their defense spending at the risk of ending the "special relationship." In history, people like to talk about Pax Romana, or the "peace of Rome." There is certainly a peace of America, our military might has basically ensured the status quo in global politics for years. In many ways thanks to Reagan and the Cold War. And our allies and other countries have gotten lazy, assuming America will always be there to save them. That's a problem.

But what Obama has tried to do, and I think Trump is generally going to continue this approach with what he talks about wanting to do with NATO, is to continue to pressure our allies to take more responsibility to solve their own regional conflicts with our support. For too long, the U.S. has led the way in regional conflicts around the world with our local allies supporting us. It's time for them to take responsibility for defending themselves. We'll help, but it's their responsibility.

The world has changed, we can no longer waste our money running around solving regional conflicts while our allies in the area are too lazy to defend themselves or even pay for the ability to.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Tulcard » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:07 am

I agree with the majority of your post. Especially with the fact that countries must step up and take more responsibility for themselves and that we can't continue to be the Protector of the world and pay for everyone. Although I do feel that it is a must to rebuild our Military to make it the most feared once again. Not to promote war, but as a deterrent to the bad actors in the World. If need be however, destroy them as necessary.

I was referring previously to Iran. Even though we have given them billions of $$, I still think that we need to impose sanctions that would cripple their economy and in this regard Germany, France, etc. need to join us in this effort.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby chevyman58 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:19 pm

Just to clarify, I know it's really hard to follow thru all the media misrepresentation.

I do not recall Trump ever saying or even inferring, "repeatedly" or otherwise, that "he's interested in leaving if they don't restructure it to his liking".

He raised issue of NATO's mission in a new world and raised issue of many participating Nations being in violation of their membership obligations monetarily & by missions involvement or absence.

And he's spot-on in those concerns, they must be addressed. After he raised the issues & got drilled by most, much of it hyperbolic, NATO itself then announced the need to re-visit their overall purpose and then Clinton & Sanders did as well.

There's a ton to criticize Trump for, his accurate observations regarding NATO aren't warranted for scorn. IMO.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby R27 » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:46 pm

chevyman58 wrote:There's a ton to criticize Trump for, his accurate observations regarding NATO aren't warranted for scorn. IMO.

His position on NATO from the beginning has basically been that the other members aren't paying what they should and that it may be obsolete. He was asked six months ago or so whether he thought we should get rid of NATO, and he answered with "It's possible."

Now, he's tempered the view a little bit, but you don't get people to negotiate by continuing to do what you're doing. "You need to pay more into NATO and if you don't, we're just going to keep doing everything like we have been," is a totally ineffective negotiating tactic. So he's said we might need to leave, he's also said we need to be willing to let other NATO members defend themselves if they aren't meeting their obligations.

So I think you can very easily read in that there is the threat that, if NATO doesn't give Trump what he wants as far as other members meeting their obligations, that America needs to be prepared to leave it.

I'm not really trying to scorn him for it, because I agree with him on it. Just pointing out that while you're in the process of shaking down your allies to spend more money on NATO and putting those relationships on the line to do so, you might have a hard time getting them on board on mixing up the Iran deal.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Elite1 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:39 pm

R27 wrote:
Tulcard wrote:Granted, oBOMBa did, or has alienated our allies. Trump will need to re-establish relationships. Do I really need to list them for you or do you want to remain sarcastic? We need to do what is in the best interest for OUR Country.

I am legitimately asking what allies you think we're talking about. Because most of our allies are allies due to membership in NATO, which Trump has repeatedly stated he's interested in leaving if they don't restructure it to his liking. So it sounds to me like Trump is the one trying to alienate our allies (actually, in many of the same ways Obama has).

If Obama has alienated our allies, it's because he's insisted that they should play a larger role in their own defense and security. He had to pressure the UK into upping their defense spending at the risk of ending the "special relationship." In history, people like to talk about Pax Romana, or the "peace of Rome." There is certainly a peace of America, our military might has basically ensured the status quo in global politics for years. In many ways thanks to Reagan and the Cold War. And our allies and other countries have gotten lazy, assuming America will always be there to save them. That's a problem.

But what Obama has tried to do, and I think Trump is generally going to continue this approach with what he talks about wanting to do with NATO, is to continue to pressure our allies to take more responsibility to solve their own regional conflicts with our support. For too long, the U.S. has led the way in regional conflicts around the world with our local allies supporting us. It's time for them to take responsibility for defending themselves. We'll help, but it's their responsibility.

The world has changed, we can no longer waste our money running around solving regional conflicts while our allies in the area are too lazy to defend themselves or even pay for the ability to.


Yes, Trump has alienated our allies, in NATO, but that can work to our advantage. IMO, he will take the approach, that there is a new sheriff in town. Play by my rules, or suffer the consequences. He wants the other NATO members to pay a fee for our services. He will tell them, "we got your back, but you have to kick down some coin, to help with the expenses." That is just one, of many financial deals, he wants to renegotiate. I agree with Trump, that we have had way to many deals, over the years, negotiated by liberal bureaucrats, that are more interested in getting a deal done, than Ameirca's best financial interests.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby chevyman58 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:34 pm

One of the huge frustrations I've had during this Election is the fact, FACT, that millions & millions of Americans formed opinions based upon total bull####. Literally. Most of it fed by slanted, selective, biased & hyperbolic focus by the media & press.

A. Trump is not some unique lunatic regarding building a wall on our Southern border. Much it has been approved time & time again, some of that already built haphazardly in fits & starts, funding components previously approved numerous times. Hillary Clinton voted funding approval for physical border barrier while a Senator. The whole representation that he's the Lone Racist Anti-Immigrant Ranger on this is absolute fraud.

B. Same with his NATO positions. He's not saying anything that hasn't been said for decades. Member Nations are required to spend a paltry amount on defense & many flagrantly refuse to do so. And where NATO focuses their missions has been an issue forever. Trump is saying nothing new.

Here's just one brief article from 10 years ago - there's tons of em. Look what NATO's own Secretary General was saying TEN YEARS AGO.

."because only seven of the 26 NATO allies reached the two-percent GDP target. And I think that is a wrong development for an alliance which is ambitious and which is called upon more and more to participate in operations and missions." Besides financial reforms, De Hoop Scheffer has said that NATO can become more effective if member countries lift limitations on how they can be deployed".

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -voa04.htm

Hillary Clinton voted in favor of building a 700-mile fence along the Mexican border. The Secure Fence Act of 2006’s stated purpose was to check the flow of illegal immigrants, drugs, and other illegal goods into the U.S. by erecting a double-layer fence along large swaths of the border. The law also generally increased funding for border security, authorizing funds for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to purchase cameras, drones, and other assets. At the time, Hillary Clinton said the law was the only possible fix to a seemingly endless torrent of illegal immigrants entering the U.S.
A direct Quote from Clinton: “There isn’t any sensible approach except to do what we need to do simultaneously: you know, secure our borders with technology and personnel, physical barriers if necessary in some places,”

http://dailycaller.com/2016/09/29/flash ... z4PqBvfVLy
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:16 pm

chevyman58 wrote:One of the huge frustrations I've had during this Election is the fact, FACT, that millions & millions of Americans formed opinions based upon total bull####. Literally. Most of it fed by slanted, selective, biased & hyperbolic focus by the media & press.

Agree with your whole post but this part of it is what infuriated me the most. And will continue to do so until the BS stops. Putting words in people's mouths to skew them to your agenda is propaganda. The propaganda BS has to S-T-O-P. As I have found from the past year of coverage, it is much more ridiculous on one side than the other but both sides need to stop that garbage. Start reporting the ACTUAL news.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby Topps » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:03 pm

mhardy_03 wrote:
chevyman58 wrote:One of the huge frustrations I've had during this Election is the fact, FACT, that millions & millions of Americans formed opinions based upon total bull####. Literally. Most of it fed by slanted, selective, biased & hyperbolic focus by the media & press.

Agree with your whole post but this part of it is what infuriated me the most. And will continue to do so until the BS stops. Putting words in people's mouths to skew them to your agenda is propaganda. The propaganda BS has to S-T-O-P. As I have found from the past year of coverage, it is much more ridiculous on one side than the other but both sides need to stop that garbage. Start reporting the ACTUAL news.


These two posts pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole political stuff as of late. Not many take the time to do any sort of research to form their own opinions. People today have become just like lost sheep following whatever "shepherd" they so chose. With a little bit of research it's easy to see that the media is feeding a load of garbage to anyone who'll listen.

I also believe that actual journalism in the country is dead. I'm not sure that it'll ever return. It's made it incredibly hard to take anything reported as news as actually being news and not something molded and twisted to fit an agenda.
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Re: Political Dugout

Postby mhardy_03 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:10 pm

Topps wrote:
mhardy_03 wrote:
chevyman58 wrote:One of the huge frustrations I've had during this Election is the fact, FACT, that millions & millions of Americans formed opinions based upon total bull####. Literally. Most of it fed by slanted, selective, biased & hyperbolic focus by the media & press.

Agree with your whole post but this part of it is what infuriated me the most. And will continue to do so until the BS stops. Putting words in people's mouths to skew them to your agenda is propaganda. The propaganda BS has to S-T-O-P. As I have found from the past year of coverage, it is much more ridiculous on one side than the other but both sides need to stop that garbage. Start reporting the ACTUAL news.


These two posts pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole political stuff as of late. Not many take the time to do any sort of research to form their own opinions. People today have become just like lost sheep following whatever "shepherd" they so chose. With a little bit of research it's easy to see that the media is feeding a load of garbage to anyone who'll listen.

I also believe that actual journalism in the country is dead. I'm not sure that it'll ever return. It's made it incredibly hard to take anything reported as news as actually being news and not something molded and twisted to fit an agenda.

You know it is really sad when South Park ends up being more truthful about the issues of today than most mainstream media sources. Not even joking.
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