Matheny Sucks?

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Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:30 am

Rumblings, articles, internet haters, blogs, ESPN, VEB - the Matheny Bashers are coming outa the woodwork.

Is that right? Is that fair? Does Bochy or Maddon have this team playing much better, with a much better W/L record?
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:26 am

I don't think that another manager has them meaningfully better.

I actually just read Derrick Goold's chat highlights from this week and he talked about how different managerial approaches appeal to different players. Many of the Cardinals players like the atmosphere in the Cardinals' clubhouse, but don't feel like they would like Maddon's approach.

In my opinion there's a chemistry problem somewhere. Whether that's a player they added or a player they didn't bring back or just uncertainty of where players will play on any given day, there's something there. I think it's telling that Matt Carpenter asked for a set position when he came back from the DL.

There are always things Matheny could do better, but that's the case for every manager out there. I pretty much believe Matheny is an average manager. Which for him has been an improvement.

My complaint this year is that he's been behind the stats.The prime example: Diaz starts the year hot, but by the time Mike finally gets around to moving him to a more important lineup spot, Diaz is slumping.

I'd like to see him be quicker to give hot hands an opportunity, especially in the bullpen. Maness has been dominant, dare I say the team's best reliever, since coming off the DL, and hasn't allowed a run in 13 innings with a 0.45 WHIP since July 5th) but is still in a mop up role.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:39 am

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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:42 am

R27 wrote: I think it's telling that Matt Carpenter asked for a set position when he came back from the DL.


Where did that info surface? I had read several reports just the opposite - that he'd play anywhere needed. Dan has said that too, on-air.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:04 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
R27 wrote: I think it's telling that Matt Carpenter asked for a set position when he came back from the DL.


Where did that info surface? I had read several reports just the opposite - that he'd play anywhere needed. Dan has said that too, on-air.

I searched a bit for what I'd read on it, but can't find it. I know I've read it. He did say that he'd play anywhere, but wanted to have a set position (be it first, second, third, etc) and not be moving around all the time. The vibe I got was that he was willing to offer flexibility on a "rest of the season" scale not game-to-game scale.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:34 pm

Basically what I'd seen & what Dan has said:

Carpenter went 4-for-12 with a double, homer and four strikeouts with Springfield. He started three games at second base and the other at third. Carpenter is expected to move between the two positions with the Cardinals, though he'll likely continue to get most of his exposure at second with the way Jedd Gyorko has seized playing time.
"[Manager Mike Matheny] knows that I'm willing to go wherever they need me for that day," Carpenter said. "I expressed my willingness to do whatever helps us win. We've already kind of crossed that road."

http://m.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article ... bled-list/
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:14 pm

I still think that's funny considering that Gyorko has been a second baseman all of his big league career and has been a better second baseman than third baseman. Kolten is also easily outplaying Jedd over the last two weeks, and they're about equal over the last month. So when Carpenter plays third base, I'll believe it.

Just repeating what I've heard and read. Carpenter was willing to play wherever they needed him, but did not want to shift around on a day-to-day basis. Fits with their decision to put him at second base permanently once Peralta returned, even when Peralta didn't play.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby Razz » Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:56 pm

IMO Mike has digressed this season. His strategies on the field are very suspect. He double switched his third and fourth place hitters the other night removing them from a close game they ended up losing. He doesn't seem to be getting better IMO. He has some great attributes, but overall I'm not a big fan.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:04 pm

Just read this and agree with a lot of it. I respect Craig Edwards' writing a good amount too. I don't think he should be fired right now as that doesn't make sense to me, but needs to fix some major flaws real soon or he should be gone.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/2016/8/9/12 ... d-be-fired
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:59 pm

I just think it's mostly a bunch of grass-is-always-greener conjecture. Haters gonna hate.

What moves in what games would Bochy or Maddon have made that would have resulted in different outcome?

And we've set franchise records & lead MLB categories in pinch-hitting accomplishments this season and have won a number of games as a result. Where's the credit for that? Seems to me when players succeed it's due to the players but when they fail it's often blamed on MM.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby Razz » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:00 pm

chevyman58 wrote:I just think it's mostly a bunch of grass-is-always-greener conjecture. Haters gonna hate.

What moves in what games would Bochy or Maddon have made that would have resulted in different outcome?

And we've set franchise records & lead MLB categories in pinch-hitting accomplishments this season and have won a number of games as a result. Where's the credit for that? Seems to me when players succeed it's due to the players but when they fail it's often blamed on MM.


I don't think it's a single thing that Mike's does that's bad, it's his everyday way he does things. Can't really think of a better way to phrase that. :) There may be some reasoning behind his thinking that I just can't figure out, but just the fact that he hasn't moved Holliday out of the middle of the order when he's obviously struggling is enough to question him. MH is normally a great hitter with RISP but he's struggling there also. He also has refused to move Carpenter down in the line up despite how well he does driving in runs. The excuse that he can only lead off because he's comfortable there only goes so far. In reality, he only leads off once a game. Maybe I'm just not understanding his logic, but apparently there's quite a few around baseball who are having the same problem. I like the guy but I think we could do better.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:16 pm

chevyman58 wrote:I just think it's mostly a bunch of grass-is-always-greener conjecture. Haters gonna hate.

What moves in what games would Bochy or Maddon have made that would have resulted in different outcome?

And we've set franchise records & lead MLB categories in pinch-hitting accomplishments this season and have won a number of games as a result. Where's the credit for that? Seems to me when players succeed it's due to the players but when they fail it's often blamed on MM.

Pretty sure neither of them would ever double switch out their #3, #4, and #5 hitters in a 9 inning game with an already short bench. That's just the worst one. And I thought he was better about using double switches correctly at the beginning of the year. False. Just so many in game tactics that are done with no real reason. That is my whole gripe with him other than playing favorites with certain veterans.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 8:54 pm

There's real reasons, he has reasons. They're simply different than the reasons you or others may have. Or I may have occasionally.

I agree with the veteran criticism, but not always. The theory is you have a career history. Look at Holliday - he ALWAYS goes on a tear or two. Sometimes he starts a season hot, sometimes cold. But historically he heats up & produces. And, as earlier this year, even when cold he is still a top run producer on the roster. He was the top guy 1st half, he's still top 2 or 3 today. Whereas with a young guy you never know if when they go cold they stay cold. See Grichuk, see Wong, see Piscotty today. And Holliday still belongs in the middle of the lineup today. There's no more than 3 guys producing today with consistent pop, he's one of em. But it's certainly showing that Holliday is in accelerated decline IMO. However, today, with Diaz out 'n Piscotty cold 'n Grichuk gone 'n Pham with a 40% K rate etc. etc. ain't a ton of options IMO.

But then with Peralta I've seen a long enough downward trend since mid-season last year that I DO think he's wrong to favor him in the batting order. Particularly when he also has a long injury layoff & returns with no rehab assignment. IMO he shoulda hit 8th for at least a few games to settle back in & show some production. As it turned out, with so many so cold, Peralta hasn't been completely horrible.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:46 pm

What about his continued use of Broxton in high leverage spots over damn near anyone else in the pen?

And all the ridiculous double switches of his best hitters out in tied or 1 run games?
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:13 pm

I think the perceived frequency of Broxton's use is not in-balance with the records or the alternatives. And if you look at his game logs he's had stretches of effectiveness. Ya got your starters incapable of going deep, ya lose Maness, ya lose Oh to the Closer role, ya got a buncha callups, Lyons gets burned going multis, Siegrist's arm is gonna fall off. Ya brought Bowman along as fast as ya could, I don't really see a ton of Pen alternatives out there. I mean, ya make it sound like Broxton was gettin' rolled out there night-after-night-after-night. He wasn't.

I don't think the double switches, over the entire season, have hurt us more than they've helped us. And I don't think the quality of those hitters in the 3,4,5 holes at the time were all so fantastic. We're not talkin' Pujols, Rolen, Edmonds. On one hand folks want Holliday or Molina or whoever dropped outa the middle of the order, then are upset when they're double-switched out for necessary pitching changes. I only recall a couple times, there may have been a 3rd, when a pitcher was forced to bat due to a lack of available bat off the bench. One was the other night with Oh when ya coulda hit Rosario & gone to Maness. The other was the game where Waino PH & got the GWRBI.

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