Matheny Sucks?

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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:11 am

The overall theme of the article was MM dodging questions, being surly with the media & Bernie specifically, avoiding self-analysis or self-blame, living within alternative facts, creating adversity within the ranks & being blindly pro-veteran to the detriment of young players. THAT is the overall, repeatedly referenced point of the article.

EXACT same theme of so may arrows thrown at TLR, often by Bernie.

In fact, he himself closes his article with this:

"Yep. Mike Matheny. The same guy who unnecessarily generated the adversity. Young players don’t need adversity. They need playing time. They need a fair opportunity. They need a manager that won’t give up on them, a manager that doesn’t have double standards or a pro-veteran bias".

Now, close your eyes and imagine it's 2009 and you're reading this from Bernie:

"Yep. Tony LaRussa. The same guy who unnecessarily generated the adversity. Young players don’t need adversity. They need playing time. They need a fair opportunity. They need a manager that won’t give up on them, a manager that doesn’t have double standards or a pro-veteran bias".

Perfect fit.

Yet resulting comments from some were to defend TLR's tactics & manners, yet now in same or similar critiques MM is an idiot for em..
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:49 am

When did he jerk players around just to jerk players around without some sort of rational or statistical reason? Again, point me to the TLR quote which was flat out lying about stats or the article that called him out for lying and I'll agree with you, but just replacing Matheny with TLR doesn't fit. I'm not saying TLR didn't do that, I'm saying I don't recall it. From what I recall, almost all of the issue that people had with TLR was him preferring vets (which makes sense within reason), his pitching changes (which 99% of them had a legit reason behind them that he would explain later if asked about), and the fact that he grew tired of answering the same questions every night after the game from the media. This article covers the first of those 3 and a lot more other stuff that TLR never had an issue with.

Who did TLR unnecessarily generate adversity with? Rasmus maybe? The guy who purposely went past his coaches to his dad, who outwardly complained about his coaches to the media while his son was still playing for them, and has complained about how the Cardinals and TLR ruined his career over 5 years later? Who else? And who did he have double standards with? Seriously if it happened, let me know and I'll agree with you that it is the same. I don't recall it though with anyone outside of Rasmus, and I'm pretty sure at this point we all agree that TLR was not in the wrong on that one, or at least not completely in the wrong as we have seen how Rasmus has acted since then.

Also when did TLR continue playing vets through prolonged slumps like what Moss went through this year when he had a decent replacement? Again, not saying it didn't happen, just saying I don't recall it if it did.

I remember TLR as a guy who played a lot of matchups to put players in a great position to succeed and for most players got the most out of their abilities, Rasmus being the main one that didn't fit into that. And he gave his exact reasons for doing so. Show me how that compares to Matheny, the guy who brought in a pitcher who hadn't thrown a pitch in over a month to pitch an extra inning playoff game where giving up 1 run ends the season and with your best pitcher still in the bullpen, which is the definition of setting someone up for failure. Or letting a guy just continue to flail away in a 2/90 slump like Moss was in without giving him some time off or waiting to play him in a good matchup instead of just running him out there every day in the middle of the lineup as he fails and fails and fails.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:19 pm

I don't wanna start arguing in February hardster.

The last summary paragraph by Bernie is the same as his & many others' complaints about TLR.

TLR constantly fostered adversity with local media, with players young & old, in interviews, in the clubhouse. Are you really forgetting well-publicized famous feuds with Chris Perez? With Scott Rolen? With Jim Edmunds? With Brendon Ryan? With Ozzie Smith? With Adam Kennedy? With Anthony Reyes? Every single year there was at least one huge public battle, some lasted multiple seasons, and all you recall is Rasmus? And you're forgetting the annual screams to play various guys over slumping ones? Seriously? Forgetting the howls about continuing to run Izzy out there? Ryan Franklin? Ryan Theeeriot? Aaron Miles? Chris Duncan? Jon Jay? Daniel Descalso? And so, so many others. Double-standards abounded routinely. Crash filled up threads & threads & threads documenting em. Time & time again he was accused of holding back young players, hurting their chances, allowing veterans much different freedoms and calling-out kids publicly. We filled pages of threads about it for years.

Perhaps you weren't as engaged in CCH for the last 5-6 years of TLR's time here as some of us & honestly don't recall the endless years of discussion on the same topics. Unfortunately the archives are off-line now. But if you think the few specific examples you cite are somehow unique and different and somehow more disastrous than every one of those that TLR made over more than 2,600 games here than that's fine by me.

From my viewpoint, if I read "Yep. Tony LaRussa. The same guy who unnecessarily generated the adversity. Young players don’t need adversity. They need playing time. They need a fair opportunity. They need a manager that won’t give up on them, a manager that doesn’t have double standards or a pro-veteran bias". I would think it an accurate portrayal. That's pretty much exactly what he used to say.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:34 pm

There are a lot of complaints about Matheny that do match complaints on La Russa. But I think that also comes from the root of, "He's not managing the way *I* think he should" not so much that he's doing anything wrong. From treatment of young players to jerking around others (often called playing the matchups). But I think La Russa bought some support to his approach that he was just smarter than you and knew what he was doing. To me, I feel like Matheny tries to be more publicly reflective than La Russa was, but often totally misses the mark and it makes him look like an idiot.

It's been a weird spring for Matheny. He basically threw the team under the bus at Winter Warmup for not stealing bases last season saying he was giving the green light and nobody was buying into it. Read a lot to me like, Look guys, I'm with you. I'd steal all the bases and I give these guys the green light. They just don't go. It's not my fault.

I think Matheny's biggest problem is instilling the confidence in young players that they can make some mistakes. Wong went 7-for-7 in stolen bases last year, probably the quickest guy on the team, but I can understand his reluctance at being aggressive on the bases because Matheny has been so tough on him when it comes to playing time.

Ben Frederickson wrote a column about Matheny needing to take his own advice on young players, much from the same comments Bernie was writing on. And I found it so true. They're still young. They're going to be inconsistent. Diaz and Grichuk both got better when they got the backing of being lineup regulars. Would Wong respond the same way? Hopefully we can find out someday.

Bottom line with young guys is letting them play loose and letting them play like they belong. Matheny was supposedly supposed to be the manager that brought that atmosphere over La Russa. Doesn't seem to be the case.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:43 pm

Who is arguing "chevster"? You made a comparison of the two and I asked for backup to that comparison. If you see that as an argument then whatever, but I don't.

Yes, he disliked the media. Absolutely. Nothing to do with players though. And I'll give you Ozzie Smith, even though it was better for Ozzie the way it ended up as he had a very nice bounce back season and Ozzie was the one that held the grudge for years afterwards. I'll give you Adam Kennedy even though we have no idea what actually happened with him and it wasn't like it was some big public thing, he was just let go in the spring and TLR was supposedly the reason for it. Rolen couldn't handle getting benched in the midst of a slump (like we said Matheny SHOULD be doing with players) and then held a grudge and became a clubhouse cancer, thus forcing a trade to get him out of town. Edmonds just got old and injured more often, and thus started losing playing time due to lack of production (and Ankiel being a better player at the time), I don't remember a real feud with TLR. Ryan's feud was with Carpenter and the rest of the clubhouse, not so much TLR who played him a lot while he was here. And Reyes had an issue with Duncan trying to get him to throw a 2 seamer, not sure what that has to do with TLR either.

Izzy closed too long, yes. As did Franklin. I'll give you that I think he stuck to his closers too long after they looked pretty clearly like they were done and that was one of my major gripes with him then. With Izzy, he really only did this for the 2008 season though, MAYBE 2006 before he got hurt. Every other year he was in STL, he was very good even though everyone hated him because he blew saves once in a while.

Theriot played as much as he did in 2006 because until they traded for Furcal, there was no other option. Not sure what you wanted him to do there. Play Aaron Miles? Wait...

What's the gripe with Aaron Miles? He was a super sub and did his job well. Are you upset he played a lot or something? He hit .289/.335/.363/.698 over his 3 years with STL while playing mostly 2B and SS while filling in at 3B and OF and being the team's position player pitcher. Seriously, what's the problem?

Chris Duncan hit 43 HR in basically a year's worth of PA between 2006-07. Then hurt his neck and I'll agree it was obvious he played too much in 2009, but he was coming off the bench in the last month before he got hurt when his slump came.

What about Jon Jay or Daniel Descalso? If anything they proved the opposite of the TLR "preference for veterans." Duncan can fall into that category too since he was far from a vet when he played.

So does he have a preference for veterans or not? Did he say one thing and then do another multiple times like Matheny has consistently done? Feel free to show me where he has if so. By far the biggest gripe I ever heard about TLR was his bullpen usage. Outside of that similarity with Matheny, I don't see a comparison.

Like R27 said, Matheny was supposed to be a "players' manager" but has actually shown to be pretty bad about that. The rumor was that TLR didn't like young guys, but that was mostly made up if you look at his actual actions. Matheny is the one who has the ridiculously short leash for the young guys, but one miles and miles long for vets.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:12 pm

You asked When did he jerk players around just to jerk players around without some sort of rational or statistical reason?, I provided several answers.

You asked Who did TLR unnecessarily generate adversity with?, I provided several answers.

You asked And who did he have double standards with?, I provided several examples of players other CCH'rs complained endlessly about.

I didn't have a problem with Dunc or Miles or whoever, nor did I state that I did. I was referring to years-long running complaints about TLR by many CCH'rs as well as by Bernie himself in the context of the tone & tenor of Bernie's article on MM and the similarity thereof.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:30 pm

chevyman58 wrote:You asked When did he jerk players around just to jerk players around without some sort of rational or statistical reason?, I provided several answers.

You asked Who did TLR unnecessarily generate adversity with?, I provided several answers.

You asked And who did he have double standards with?, I provided several examples of players other CCH'rs complained endlessly about.

I didn't have a problem with Dunc or Miles or whoever, nor did I state that I did. I was referring to years-long running complaints about TLR by many CCH'rs as well as by Bernie himself in the context of the tone & tenor of Bernie's article on MM and the similarity thereof.

Alright. I disagree with the comparison, including several of the players mentioned. Both had gripes, but the gripes with Matheny are not the same as TLR other than like R27 said "he isn't managing how I would."
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:46 pm

mhardy_03 wrote:Alright. I disagree with the comparison, including several of the players mentioned. Both had gripes, but the gripes with Matheny are not the same as TLR other than like R27 said "he isn't managing how I would."


In your opinion.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:52 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
mhardy_03 wrote:Alright. I disagree with the comparison, including several of the players mentioned. Both had gripes, but the gripes with Matheny are not the same as TLR other than like R27 said "he isn't managing how I would."


In your opinion.

Yes, in my opinion. Not in anyone else's opinion lol. Just like what you said was your opinion. Not sure what the point was to clarify that but alright. Agree to disagree.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:02 pm

R27 wrote:Bottom line with young guys is letting them play loose and letting them play like they belong. Matheny was supposedly supposed to be the manager that brought that atmosphere over La Russa. Doesn't seem to be the case.


Guys weren't dancing in the dugout. Guy's weren't throwing water in each other's faces. Or stacking cups for TV cameras. Or having National Anthem statue contests. Not in TLRs dugout, not with Albert the Enforcer on patrol.

Think back to what TLR would not tolerate from young players, think back objectively. And then tell me that MM isn't a tolerant Manager for the young guys. He stuck by CMart time & time again having immature meltdowns on the hill with the umpires. We've ranted about it ourselves numerous times in game threads over the past two seasons. No way TLR would have not come unglued on CMart the 2nd or 3rd or umpteenth time. He hung Lynn out to dry for far, far less.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:16 pm

Rasmus was an idiot. Brendan Ryan was an idiot. Scott Rolen had problems in Philly as well as St. Louis which leads me to believe that he was allergic to either criticism or discipline.

Matheny on the other hand has been given young players to develop. He was brought in because of his ability to teach. He didn't give Grichuk a chance last year until he had no choice. He hasn't given Wong a chance. And there was probably more last year, but I got so disgusted in the teams performance last year that I pretty much checked out prior to the All Star break.

Fact is, the organization is committed to youth. Mo's actions support that. Matheny has the contract security now. What he needs to do is chill out and let the kids play. They are gonna slump and have hot streaks. Give them breaks when necessary but for the most part pencil them in and leave them the heck alone.

I think we've all seen that Wong is an emotional player. Heck, you can even say that he's insecure. But given his talent, let him play without worry. Let him learn to manage his emotions.

Yanking him in and out of the lineup isn't going to help him or the team.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby Tulcard » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:01 pm

Wong needs to man up this year. Play with confidence and control the ups & downs of the season. The kid has tons of ability, but is his own worst enemy. A poor attitude not only affects his play but can be a drain on others. Hope he has a great year and can manage things in a good way.... 8-)
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:03 pm

marteezy wrote: He didn't give Grichuk a chance last year until he had no choice. He hasn't given Wong a chance.

These are the kind of hyperbolic 'Fake News' statements that make my head explode.

Grichuk was the everyday starter from Opening Day until THE MIDDLE OF JUNE with rare exception. He was hitting a soft .206 when sent down for 2-1/2 weeks. That's not a chance? http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... &year=2016

Wong has over 1,400 MLB reg season plate appearances the last 3 years. That's not a chance?
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Re: Game 1, Opening Day: Cardinals @ Pirates, 04/03/16, 12:05 PM CST
Postby R27 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:38 am
First pitch: 12:05 pm CT

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Cardinals lineup:
Matt Carpenter (3B)
Tommy Pham (LF)
Matt Holliday (1B)
Randal Grichuk (CF)
Stephen Piscotty (RF)
Yadier Molina (C)
Kolten Wong (2B)
Jedd Gyorko (SS)
Adam Wainwright (RHP)
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:49 pm

I think Wong should be in the lineup everyday unless he's injured or exhausted. I think Grichuk should be in the lineup everyday unless injured or exhausted. Sending guys down to the minors and yo-yo'ing them in and out of the lineup isn't beneficial.

Last year Wong played 30 fewer games than the year prior. Last year he played 70 fewer games at second than the year before. And he was not hurt.

Mo signed Kolten to a long term deal. Mo didn't trade Kolten last year and he didn't trade him this offseason. Mo is committed to Kolten. It's time for Matheny to stop futzing around with the guy and just let him play.

If he knows that he's going to be in the lineup everyday, his confidence will soar along with his performance. But looking over your shoulder every time you make a mistake is not conducive to high confidence or strong performance.
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Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:44 pm

marteezy wrote:Scott Rolen had problems in Philly as well as St. Louis which leads me to believe that he was allergic to either criticism or discipline.

Rolen had issues with Bowa, but never to the level he had with La Russa. And his biggest issue in Philly was the organization's lack of commitment to winning. Which is why he turned down an extension there and ultimately got traded. I think in St. Louis, that the root of the breakup was because Rolen was not ready to accept that he was not the star player he once was.

chevyman58 wrote:Wong has over 1,400 MLB reg season plate appearances the last 3 years. That's not a chance?

I think we can debate what a chance is. He's got lots of plate appearances, but he's either been jerked in and out of the lineup or run way too hard like he was in July/August of 2015, they year he was arguably the biggest All Star snub.

It's hard to play loose while looking over your shoulder. Part of that is Wong, but part of that is also Matheny proving to Wong that he has to look over his shoulder.

The next is more in a general statement, not really a response to anything.

This is a team that really shouldn't have a communication problem, but I think it does. I think it was exposed over the winter too. And in my opinion, that starts with Matheny.

Carpenter was told that they were going to commit to him at first base so that he could prepare properly for the job. That was a good sign, but Grichuk says he was never told by the organization that they were hoping to acquire a center fielder and move him to left and Wacha was not told what the club expects him to do this spring. This can be a festering issue. If Matheny's talking at winter warmup about trying to get guys to buy in, that takes getting these guys involved in the plan so that they can buy in. Bottom line is, you can't buy into a plan that you don't know about.
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