Matheny Sucks?

Your place for everything about the St. Louis Cardinals.
User avatar
marteezy
Everyday Starter
Everyday Starter
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:41 am

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:59 pm

You're spot on. I think communication is a huge problem with the organization right now, and Matheny owns the brunt of it. It's his responsibility to understand how Mo envisions the execution of the roster. And it's his responsibility to let the players know what to work on in the offseason and what role they should expect to fill during the season.

This season is going to be very interesting. I think the team succeeded the past few years in spite of Matheny. Last year, was an absolute disaster and Matheny owns the majority of the fault. Another bad season may not bode well for him.
User avatar
chevyman58
Pitching Coach
Pitching Coach
Posts: 2709
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm
Location: Putzville, Texas

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:28 am

Some just search for things to blame Matheny for, truly. And do a lousy job at it, conflating facts with fantasy to try and put it all on him. There are valid criticisms of Matheny to be had, for sure. Focus on the ones that are valid.

To lay blame at MM for Wong or Grichuk's weaknesses but give him zero credit for their successes is ridiculous. Wong & Grichuk DID play everyday. They've been given numerous chances. To just make up 'what-ifs' as forecast facts is ridiculous. Yet, along the way, when other guys are 0-forever or hitting .206 or sucking you're pounding Matheny for continuing to play them. Make up your mind ...................

Mo signed Kolten to a long term deal. Mo didn't trade Kolten last year and he didn't trade him this offseason. Mo is committed to Kolten. It's time for Matheny to stop futzing around with the guy and just let him play. Same with Craig, exactly same. And when he kept playing him despite his continued slump he got ripped by the Board, ripped to shreds. When Wong was struggling last year many were criticizing Matheny for playing him. Now, he's being criticized for not playing him more.

Look, you can blame MM for everything including the weather. You can take the responsibility off of Mo for everything & say "Matheny owns the majority of the fault". But how about being real for once, being objective, and at least acknowledge the obvious. MM didn't create a roster that had the least athletic defense in years. He didn't create the roster that had 3 1Bmen, 3 2Bmen, no 3Bman no CF'r & no SS outa Spring Training. He didn't cause Waino & Garcia to not be able to get anybody out. Mo has to bear some responsibility. If you look at the overall roster and the overall starting pitching last year it's ridiculous to think that team was going to beat the Cubs and go anywhere.

And I'm not sure I see much substantive improvement to the roster this year. That's not on Matheny.
User avatar
mhardy_03
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 1345
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Troy

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:32 am

You don't see substasative improvement to the roster this year? Losing Holliday, Moss, Garcia (who you even said couldn't get anyone out) while gaining Fowler, Cecil, and Lynn and getting Reyes for a full year and that isn't roster improvement?

Sure some people look for reasons to blame him for everything. But some people look for reasons to defend him when there is no real defense of his actions or words.
CSFBL - Bayside Tigers

Team info under my ownership (2037-2115):
79 seasons, 7898-4742 (.625), 70 Playoff Apps, 48 Division Titles, 32 League Titles
11 World Series Titles (2047, 2072, 2076, 2078, 2084, 2087, 2092, 2101, 2102, 2104, 2115)
User avatar
R27
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:50 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:58 am

I don't see substantive improvement on the roster from 2016 to 2017. Pitching gets better, but the offense got worse. Reyes' impact will greatly depend on what role he has.

But my opinion has always been that last year's team was the best Mozeliak had assembled for Matheny, but the problem was that it didn't fit together well. I do believe that this year's will fit together a little better. But there are a still a few fit issues that I wish Mo had dealt with more decisively this winter (Peralta, Adams, Wacha).
@JonDobleRBD - Redbird Dugout

El gato es en fuego en mi pantelones.
User avatar
marteezy
Everyday Starter
Everyday Starter
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:41 am

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:02 pm

Chev, we can all agree that last years roster was less the ideal. Matheny was not given a bed of roses. However, he didn't give the everyday job to Diaz until he had no choice.

As for the Craig/Wong comparison. There is no comparison. Craig was 29 years old with a body that had been run through the ringer with injuries. Kolten Wong just turned 25. For a team that struggled with athleticism, he's your most athletic player, yet he played his primary position 70 times fewer than the year before.

I'm the first to say that if a guy is slumping give him a rest. But you also have to recognize who the guy is and where the guy is in his development as a player.

Barring performance enhancers or some light suddenly coming on, it should unlikely that a 29-30 year old player is going to suddenly become a stud. Typically at that age, you are plateauing as a player. But a 24-25 year old, the same ages of Grichuk and Wong it's different. A player at that age is reaching his peak developmental years. They are learning a lot. What they can and can't do and how to cope with adversity.

These are men not machines. Not everyone is going to go out and hit .295 with 20 bombs. If anyone understands that contributions can come in a variety of ways it should be Matheny.

Using his logic against himself, he would've never survived in the big leagues were it not for his defense because he was crap with the bat.
User avatar
mhardy_03
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 1345
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Troy

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:09 pm

R27 wrote:I don't see substantive improvement on the roster from 2016 to 2017. Pitching gets better, but the offense got worse. Reyes' impact will greatly depend on what role he has.

But my opinion has always been that last year's team was the best Mozeliak had assembled for Matheny, but the problem was that it didn't fit together well. I do believe that this year's will fit together a little better. But there are a still a few fit issues that I wish Mo had dealt with more decisively this winter (Peralta, Adams, Wacha).

Moss/Holliday vs Fowler isn't an improvement on offense? Moss and Holliday were both coming off pretty bad years going into last season. Fowler to me is going to be more reliable at this point. I dunno, I can see a case either way. But even if the offense doesn't improve with that change, it isn't a huge drop off. And the outfield defense definitely improves and there shouldn't be a debate about it.

Agree on the issue last year and the 3 guys you mentioned in that no one really knows what their role will be this year. Hopefully we don't have the same issue we had last year although it is definitely possible.
CSFBL - Bayside Tigers

Team info under my ownership (2037-2115):
79 seasons, 7898-4742 (.625), 70 Playoff Apps, 48 Division Titles, 32 League Titles
11 World Series Titles (2047, 2072, 2076, 2078, 2084, 2087, 2092, 2101, 2102, 2104, 2115)
User avatar
R27
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:50 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:34 pm

marteezy wrote:Chev, we can all agree that last years roster was less the ideal. Matheny was not given a bed of roses. However, he didn't give the everyday job to Diaz until he had no choice.

Really, as did La Russa with Pujols. Until Bonilla got hurt, Pujols was headed to Memphis. It's an organizational decision though. Sure Matheny could say, "I have to have Diaz," but that's not how you fill out a roster leaving spring training. It's the path of least resistance. But after arriving, Diaz quickly became the regular shortstop, starting 7 of the next 10 games.

marteezy wrote:These are men not machines.

Given some of our discussions years ago. I got a giggle out of this.

mhardy_03 wrote:Moss/Holliday vs Fowler isn't an improvement on offense? Moss and Holliday were both coming off pretty bad years going into last season. Fowler to me is going to be more reliable at this point. I dunno, I can see a case either way. But even if the offense doesn't improve with that change, it isn't a huge drop off. And the outfield defense definitely improves and there shouldn't be a debate about it.

Fowler is a different kind of player than Moss and Holliday. It's like the comparisons between Jay and Rasmus back in 2011. They both get their value somewhere different, so it's really hard to do a direct comparison.

Moss & Holliday hit a combined .235/.310/.473 for an .783 OPS in what was down years for both. Fowler had a career year last year with an .840 OPS. The previous three years he averaged a .768 OPS.

So I don't think it's an automatic that Fowler is better. Different and is more of what I think the roster needs, but not better.

And to the bold point, we're talking about offensive improvement, not defensive improvement, so I don't think defense settles a discussion about offensive improvement. But even if you want to talk about defense, I can make the case that Grichuk is a better CFer than Fowler and Moss is generally a plus defender in LF.

Now, Fowler may end up being better than Moss and Holliday, but I think the way Fowler most improves the team is in fit and being more of what the team needs but not necessarily being a "better" hitter than who he is replacing.
@JonDobleRBD - Redbird Dugout

El gato es en fuego en mi pantelones.
User avatar
mhardy_03
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 1345
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:04 am
Location: Troy

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby mhardy_03 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:37 pm

Well I guess the bolded point was added because you mentioned that the offense got worse but pitching better, without mention of the defense improvement. It wasn't meant as a "boom winner" comment, just something added to the discussion. Lol.
CSFBL - Bayside Tigers

Team info under my ownership (2037-2115):
79 seasons, 7898-4742 (.625), 70 Playoff Apps, 48 Division Titles, 32 League Titles
11 World Series Titles (2047, 2072, 2076, 2078, 2084, 2087, 2092, 2101, 2102, 2104, 2115)
User avatar
R27
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:50 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:39 pm

mhardy_03 wrote:Well I guess the bolded point was added because you mentioned that the offense got worse but pitching better, without mention of the defense improvement. It wasn't meant as a "boom winner" comment, just something added to the discussion. Lol.

Pitching gets better because Lynn is good and Cecil is good and we're starting the year with Oh as closer. And that should move some of the poor performers from last season into less important roles.
@JonDobleRBD - Redbird Dugout

El gato es en fuego en mi pantelones.
User avatar
chevyman58
Pitching Coach
Pitching Coach
Posts: 2709
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm
Location: Putzville, Texas

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:46 pm

MT, Diaz wasn't even on the radar, no projection to be on the '16 roster. That's why they went right out & got Tejeda. Mo did that, not Matheny. And Wong played much less 2B because of getting producing players on the field. Heck, MM tried to play him in the OF the roster matched-up to positions so bad.

R27, I don't see last year as MM's best list. At all. Deeper bench, sure. But for 8-10 everyday players no way. More unproven kids than ever on the field & on the hill, and all the veterans were in decline. Only Molina performed to career norms (beyond miraculously). Peralta had been horrible since '15 AS Break, Holliday aging, etc. etc. Got lucky Gyorko exceeded expectations.

I don't see improvement certainty this year at all. Even in decline Holliday was a game-changing run producer, the most consistent one on the team. Can't count on Gyorko repeating his year, nor Molina by any stretch. Will Fowler match his 1-year contract performance he had playing for FA contract on The Best Team In Baseball in front of the Best 2-3 hitters in MLB? Not a certainty. And I don't know that a returning Lynn will blow away Garcia's numbers. Can Waino get people out again? Will CMart be as good? We're stuck with Leake forever. Is Wacha ever going to be good again? Will Reyes even be in the rotation? If Carp's your everyday 1Bman does Adams ever play? Will Peralta still suck? You're running outa players to contribute. Diaz, Wong, Grichuk & Piscotty are all going to have to perform at solid levels & two of them are going to have to have great years for us to compete.

So no, I don't see a substantially better team on the field on Opening Day '17 than last year. Not at all.

And I'm not buying into Reyes yet. We haven't had a young starter pan-out in years & years. CMart is close to being the 1st one since Waino. Miller crapped-out. Garcia crapped-out. Wacha crapped-out. Lynn is solid but not great since he led MLB in run support & crapped-out late-season several times. I see Reyes' dominance late last year in same view as Wacha's callup & dominance, he crapped-out since. So I see Reyes as a hopeful dominator for years but history says don't bet on it.

I think the immediate future of this team lays on the young shoulders of Diaz as much as anybody. Praying he's the Real Deal. We haven't had one since Renteria. Need to strike lightning with Diaz or we're in big trouble.
User avatar
chevyman58
Pitching Coach
Pitching Coach
Posts: 2709
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm
Location: Putzville, Texas

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:26 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
I don't see improvement certainty this year at all.

And I'm not buying into Reyes yet. We haven't had a young starter pan-out in years & years. CMart is close to being the 1st one since Waino. Miller crapped-out. Garcia crapped-out. Wacha crapped-out. Lynn is solid but not great since he led MLB in run support & crapped-out late-season several times. I see Reyes' dominance late last year in same view as Wacha's callup & dominance, he crapped-out since. So I see Reyes as a hopeful dominator for years but history says don't bet on it.


And this was BEFORE they slid Reyes into the MRI tube this morning with elbow discomfort ......................

I'm as big of rose-colored-glasses optimist as I can be but I don't see the substantive roster improvement folks.
User avatar
marteezy
Everyday Starter
Everyday Starter
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:41 am

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:20 pm

My comments regarding Diaz center on the start of the season when he was tearing the cover off the ball but was still getting inconsistent starts until they realized the Tejada was garbage.
User avatar
R27
Franchise Player
Franchise Player
Posts: 2114
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:50 pm
Location: North Carolina
Contact:

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby R27 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:40 pm

marteezy wrote:My comments regarding Diaz center on the start of the season when he was tearing the cover off the ball but was still getting inconsistent starts until they realized the Tejada was garbage.

Tejada started 4 games at shorstop for the Cardinals. It took him 16 games after returning from the DL to get them. He played 34 innings at short over those 16 games (~144 total innings). It's not like Diaz was benched for him. Not like the Wong & Ellis situation of a few years ago. Tejada had a good spring until he got hurt. And was plus defensively at short. You can't just bury him after he comes back.

And there was really no guarantee that Diaz wasn't going to pull a Hazelbaker either. We act like it was a foregone conclusion that Diaz would be a great hitter, but both Diaz and Hazelbaker took off about the same time the year before and carried it over early.
@JonDobleRBD - Redbird Dugout

El gato es en fuego en mi pantelones.
User avatar
chevyman58
Pitching Coach
Pitching Coach
Posts: 2709
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:36 pm
Location: Putzville, Texas

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby chevyman58 » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:59 am

I don't see any criticism warranted for Diaz' playing time, at all.

And lets not forget he was booting the ball at more than a ThEEEriot-pace.
User avatar
marteezy
Everyday Starter
Everyday Starter
Posts: 392
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:41 am

Re: Matheny Sucks?

Postby marteezy » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:35 am

chevyman58 wrote:Good to see ya MT, hope you'll participate with us more.

Not sure name-calling lends itself to initiating thoughtful discussion but we'll see.


Hi Chev! I just really don't think very highly of Matheny. I hope he shows some growth as a manager this year. But based on his early comments, I'm preparing to be disappointed.

If he were able to coherently explain some of the things he does it would be one thing. But he doesn't. He just kinda throws a bunch of nonsense together.

But whatever. I guess I have to reluctantly accept he's going to be around for at least a couple more years.

Return to “St. Louis Cardinals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest