Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

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Elite1
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby Elite1 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:05 pm

STL pitchers, ERA, at the all-star break:

Mike Leake 3.12
Brett Cecil* 3.31
Carlos Martinez 3.40
Seung-hwan Oh 3.54
Lance Lynn 3.61
Matthew Bowman 3.86
Trevor Rosenthal 4.05
Michael Wacha 4.10
Tyler Lyons* 4.15
Kevin Siegrist* 4.94
Adam Wainwright 5.20
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby marteezy » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:17 pm

Piscotty = Craig

Disappointing bust. Bad defense, bad baserunning, bad bat.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby R27 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:42 pm

I wrote the other day about what to do when Wong comes back on Friday because we have five infielders who deserve to start. I suggested moving Carpenter to LF and making Piscotty the fourth outfielder.

Now, I don't think they'll do it because they've got him signed to a six year deal, but I think that actually makes it easier to tell him he's taking a back seat right now because long-term the team is still committed to him, so he's going to get a chance to be part of the starting 8 again either when an infielder cools off or next year.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby Tulcard » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:15 pm

I could see Carpenter splitting time with both Wong & Voit and playing an occasional 3B to give Gyorko a rest. Doubt if we see him in the OF. Garcia would seem to be the odd man out on the IF.

OF will probably be in some sort of rotation. So long as Pham is not the one consistently left on the bench. Production talks as always.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby Topps » Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:01 pm

Never really pictured Carp as an OFer. That said with the way the club has flopped him around so much I wouldn't say it's out of the question. They can't seem to make up their mind what they want to do with him.

It'll be curious to see if Wong comes back hitting like he was when he went down or if he's back to struggling. Playing time may not be an issue with anyone depending on how he comes back. Granted he'll have to get playing time to find out but it may sort itself out quickly.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby R27 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:21 am

Tulcard wrote:I could see Carpenter splitting time with both Wong & Voit and playing an occasional 3B to give Gyorko a rest. Doubt if we see him in the OF. Garcia would seem to be the odd man out on the IF.

OF will probably be in some sort of rotation. So long as Pham is not the one consistently left on the bench. Production talks as always.

It sounds like Matheny's basic plan in the OF as he talked about it seems to be to rotate everyone in so basically you play three, off one, and so on.

My only fear with Wong in a split time role is that he'll revert to looking over his shoulder. He's proven what he can do when he is the starter and gets the backing of the manager.

That and when I look at Carpenter's defensive metrics, he's best when he's playing the same position everyday. He's not good at being a utility defender.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:30 am

R27 wrote:. He's proven what he can do when he is the starter and gets the backing of the manager.


Not in my opinion he hasn't - with exception of just a few week stretch this season. Very small sample size. He's been given other hands-off stretches and has stunk it up bad on both sides of the ball.

The jury remains completely out on Wong IMO. He's proven nothing more than Grichuk or Diaz comparatively. Only reason he's guaranteed to return is his long-term deal, just like Piscotty. IMO they can both hit the road, they've not proven to be a young core for the future that was expected when they were given their arb buyout deals.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby R27 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:51 am

chevyman58 wrote:
R27 wrote:. He's proven what he can do when he is the starter and gets the backing of the manager.


No, he hasn't - with exception of just a few week stretch this season. Very small sample size. He's been given other hands-off stretches and has stunk it up bad on both sides of the ball.

The jury remains completely out on Wong, it really does. He's proven nothing more than Grichuk or Diaz comparatively. Only reason he's guaranteed to return is his long-term deal, just like Piscotty. IMO they can both hit the road, they've not proven to be a young core for the future that was expected when they were given their arb buyout deals.

You do realize the two first halves where he's been the regular starting second baseman without having a challenger for his spot have been All Star caliber right? If he'd been healthy this year, he should have been. Here's Wong's first halves those two years with those of the two guys selected to the All Star team.

First half 2015: .280/.343/.434, 9 HR
Panik: .308/.372/.448, 7 HR
LeMaheiu: .311/.365/.397, 4 HR

First half 2017: .301/.393/.444, 1 HR
Harrison: .280/.361/.436, 10 HR
LeMahieu: .307/.364/.389, 4 HR

Over the last two months he played (starting on the return after the sweep in the Bronx when Mo took Peralta off the roster), he's been pretty much been a .300/.400/.500 player. Does he have to prove he can keep it up over a whole season? Yeah. Matheny needs to ensure that he's not overused like he was in the second half of 2015 where he started 32 straight games, was the only second baseman on the roster and slumped hard for about three weeks. But after a night off turned it around to finish the season.

This season was really the first time he's had the full endorsement of the manager to run wild at second base. Where he was not having to worry about his playing time after making a mistake. And he's really taken off. I just think it'd be a shame to change it up and not see what he can do.

If you do a time share with Carpenter at second base, Wong still has question marks going into next year. If you play Wong regularly, we get an idea whether he can be an answer at second base or needs to be moved. If you muddy up his playing time and get to the end of this year and still don't have an answer on what Wong can mean to this team going forward, then you failed. That's really the problem they had with Adams. They never got an answer on what he could be. So you trade him for a bucket of baseballs and watch him succeed elsewhere.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby marteezy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:07 am

Piscotty has a long term deal like Wong. Piscitty has been terrible this season in every aspect of the game. Yes, he has the situation with his Mom. But as a professional, he's gotta figure out a way to compartmentalize.

If it were my call, I'd ship Piscotty to Memphis so he can get his stuff together.

Carpenter would go back to first and Voit would play against lefties.

Carp is a terrible defender anywhere you put him, but I think he can probably catch the routine fly ball in left and he can probably throw to the cutoff man with little drama.

As for Wong, he's been solid when healthy this year. He hasn't done anything to warrant a time share.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:02 pm

marteezy wrote:Piscotty has a long term deal like Wong. Piscitty has been terrible this season in every aspect of the game.


Not quite every aspect. OBP over .350 & hitting .311 w/RISP.

But I agree he doesn't deserve to be out there every day, certainly not over Pham.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:03 pm

R27 wrote:You do realize the two first halves where he's been the regular starting second baseman without having a challenger for his spot have been All Star caliber right?


No ................. :oops: :shock: :oops:

But do now.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby R27 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:31 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
R27 wrote:You do realize the two first halves where he's been the regular starting second baseman without having a challenger for his spot have been All Star caliber right?


No ................. :oops: :shock: :oops:

But do now.

I figured I'd mentioned it before. :lol: He was a pretty big All Star snub IMO in 2015, and his second half struggles are mostly overrated because his slump was about three weeks long and then he hit about .290 the last five weeks of the season.

I think in general with Wong we ultimately agree. Wong has to prove is whether he can keep this up over a season. I just happen to think he's proven he deserves the opportunity. Pulling him from the starting job now hurts this team long-term. If we split him time with Carpenter AND we miss the playoffs, this truly was a lost season because we still don't know whether Wong can put together a full season.

The Cardinals have a "build from within" organizational strategy, but they do not have a "rely on within" strategy at the field level. Often the first sign of struggle from a young player creates havoc on lineups. Young guys need to struggle. They need to learn to adjust. But they also need the opportunity. I feel like the Cardinals recently under Matheny have not given young guys extended opportunities to learn and polish their development at the big league level. I get the point, Matheny and the coaching staff are trying to win now. But it's a conflicting strategy with the front office playing the long-term game. They need to get on the same page.

It's one of my pet peeves right now.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby chevyman58 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:15 pm

We used to have strong enough lineups to carry a guy or two thru offensive struggles. Not any more, no MV3 on this roster.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby Topps » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:37 pm

Wong and Siegrist activated off the 10 day DL.

Mejia and Weaver sent to Memphis.
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Re: Official 2017 Cardinals News Thread

Postby mhardy_03 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:06 pm

chevyman58 wrote:We used to have strong enough lineups to carry a guy or two thru offensive struggles. Not any more, no MV3 on this roster.

Not even an MV1 anymore. Times have changed a lot and they need to find at least 1 person who you know they can count on.
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