Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

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Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:08 am

Piscotty back up, Voit back to Memphis

Ya gotta play Pham - MUST play him. He's the team MVP so far this season, edging out DeJong so far IMO. He's also the best CF'r on the team IMO. In fact - I think Fowler's no better than the 3rd-best CF'r. He's the worst CF'r in MLB on balls in front of him IMO. But, expect him in CF every day.

JMart can hit, a ton. But he's your worst defensive OF'r. With Voit gone I assume JMart your backup 1Bman, where he's completely inexperienced & has looked really rough defensively. There are no more Away InterLeague games, no more DH oppty's. But he can hit, a ton.

So you're gonna see Fowler every day & ya gotta see Pham every day. So do Grichuk & Piscotty rotate? Had yesterday off, next Monday's another off day (4 outa 5 Mondays), and you have Monday off the 2nd & 3rd week next month (6 out of 8 Mondays). So there are off-days built-in that don't lend themselves to resting Pham or Fowler much (Pham just rested Sunday night & yesterday's off-day). What to do? Who to play?

And what do you do going forward in the offseason????
Fowler 31, - 5 years/$82.5M (2017-21), $10M signing bonus (paid in $1M installments each July 1 & Oct. 1, 2017-21), 17-21: $14.5M annually
Piscotty 26, - 6 years/$33.5M (2017-22), $2M signing bonus, 17:$1M, 18:$1M, 19:$7M, 20:$7M, 21 & 22:$7.25M, 23:$15M club option ($1M out)
Grichuk 26, - Arb 1 eligible next season, 2018
Pham 29, - Team control for several years, not Arb 1 eligible until 2019
JMart 29, - Team control for several years, not Arb 1 eligible until at least 2019
Bader 23, - Team control for years
Sierra 21, - Team control for years
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:50 am

There is zero urgency from Mo, Girsch, and Matheny on how they manage. Four of the Cardinals' best five hitters of the second half are outfielders. Martinez has a 168 wRC+, Fowler has a 146 wRC+, Pham has a 142 wRC+, and Grichuk has a 135 wRC+. Beyond slugging, Piscotty wasn't even outhitting that group while he was facing AAA pitching, so I don't know what he's going to bring except difficulty forming a proper lineup.

I'd have much rather seen them keep Voit (hitting .300 in August), play him at first, move Carpenter back to third and put Gyorko who has hit .208 in July and .204 so far in August (with half his August hits in two games) on the bench. That would have been a move that would have illustrated urgency and desire to focus on winning games.

I don't know what's going to happen. I expect that Matheny will essentially rotate the four of them and you basically get every fourth day off. When those four were on the roster earlier, he talked about that being his strategy.

Personally, I think Pham has earned the right to be an everyday guy the rest of the season. He and Fowler are the two that need to play every day. Let Piscotty and Grichuk share the rest of the playing time.

Future-wise, I think you trade Grichuk. With his power and age and less of an injury/eyesight loss risk, he's going to be more attractive than Pham. You go with Pham to start next season and use Bader/O'Neill/Sierra/etc to take the spot if Pham slips. But I suggested a strategy like that with third base last winter (have Gyorko and Garcia platoon and have DeJong on deck to come up) and they kept everyone around. So I expect more of the same. Eventually they'll have a whole roster of starting quality players that Matheny can't deploy correctly.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:13 pm

R27 wrote: Personally, I think Pham has earned the right to be an everyday guy thru at least April 2018.


FIXED
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:39 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
R27 wrote: Personally, I think Pham has earned the right to be an everyday guy thru at least April 2018.


FIXED

If he opens up 2018 batting .100 for April, I'm not going to ride or die with him for another five months. Next year is a new year. Have to bring it again to keep your spot.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 6:20 pm

R27 wrote:
chevyman58 wrote:
R27 wrote: Personally, I think Pham has earned the right to be an everyday guy thru at least April 2018.


FIXED

If he opens up 2018 batting .100 for April, I'm not going to ride or die with him for another five months. Next year is a new year. Have to bring it again to keep your spot.


That's why it's "at least" thru April. Give him 3-1/2 - 4 weeks. If he tanks he sits. But he's earned a starting spot, best season of all (so far, no jinx!).
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby R27 » Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:39 pm

Totally spazzed and saw August, sorry. Partly was confused as that' was not a full season and well yeah... Long day.
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Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby Elite1 » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:40 pm

What have you done for me lately?
OF stats, since the all-star break:
Name/ops/avg/HR
J Martinez, 1.029,.296,5
Fowler, .910, .298, 1
Grichuk, .909, .302, 6
Pham, .902, .314, 5
Bader, .729, .286, O
Sierra, .700, .350, O
Piscotty, .669, .226, 1


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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby Razz » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:28 am

With Piscotty and Sierra gone, we now have Fowler, Pham and Ozuna as our full time outfielders. That leaves Martinez, Grichuk, Bader and probably have to think O'Neil is ready. Probably only two of the four make the team. Trades could change everything of course.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby Tulcard » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:35 am

There's also Alonis Garcia who will open the season at AAA I believe.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 1:21 pm

Razz wrote:With Piscotty and Sierra gone, we now have Fowler, Pham and Ozuna as our full time outfielders. That leaves Martinez, Grichuk, Bader and probably have to think O'Neil is ready. Probably only two of the four make the team. Trades could change everything of course.


Martinez is apparently working hard with Oquendo this Winter on 1B drills, attempting to become a legitimate 1B option.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby R27 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:18 pm

chevyman58 wrote:
Razz wrote:With Piscotty and Sierra gone, we now have Fowler, Pham and Ozuna as our full time outfielders. That leaves Martinez, Grichuk, Bader and probably have to think O'Neil is ready. Probably only two of the four make the team. Trades could change everything of course.


Martinez is apparently working hard with Oquendo this Winter on 1B drills, attempting to become a legitimate 1B option.

I think the plan is going to be Gyorko, Carpenter, and Martinez sharing 1B/3B between the three of them this season with Martinez as a fifth outfielder.

They still haven't fixed the outfield problem. Piscotty and Sierra out, Ozuna in. Ideally, two years until there's a starting job opening up with Bader and O'Neill both knocking on the door. Something's going to have to give.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:53 pm

Ya never know.

Holliday did what JMart is doing and coming out of Spring Training Mo said firmly that Holliday would not be playing 1B. Then, not long into the season, he was playing there regularly until injury changed everything.

Just like Carp was the everyday 1Bman, period. He would not be rotating positions. Then, BAM, he's moving all over the place.

Every season there's a couple rigid statements of certainty regarding positions that quickly evaporate into thin air.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby Razz » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:05 pm

It's going to depend on how many pitcher MM wants to carry.
Infield
Carpenter
Wong
DeJong
Gyorko
Molina
Kelly

Outfield
Fowler
Pham
Ozuna
Martinez

Here's ten players that are almost guaranteed to make the team. If Mike goes with 13 pitchers, then that only leaves two more position spots. Still have Voit, G. Garcia, Grichuk, Bader. Gotta figure that Garcia makes the team because he's the only other player who can back up short and third. If Martinez is the back up at first base, it probably means that Voit is out. That leaves Grichuk and Bader.
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby chevyman58 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:20 am

Haven't we seen Gyorko play a few times at SS & do a serviceable job? Or am I having another senior-moment memory?

R27, can you access sortable stats by position on that one?

I think Garcia is up too, just thinkin' Gyorko could cover SS a handful of times for rest days, or for an in-game injury until a callup could catch a bus.

Here's another thought - MLB is supposed to be working towards a better spacing of off days. It appears we only have 7 weeks without an off day & it looks like we had 11 last year. Additionally, it looks like we had 2 stretches last year where we had two consecutive weeks with no off days as well. Perhaps a couple makeup games caused that to happen. Point being, if MLB balances off days better, rest opptys easier to accommodate.

R27, info/insight on MLB trying to balance off days? I thought I heard there goal was an off day per week?

I think we're all hoping DeJong can roll out there for 154 games, hit .290/30/100 & then play every inning of the postseason.
Just like we were hoping Diaz would roll out there this past season for 154 games, hit .300/25/90 & drag us into the World Series.

It's stunning to me that our iconic franchise has been rotating SS's on an annual basis year-after-year-after-year since Renteria with the sole exception of getting away with 2bman Eck there for a short run by surrounding him with the MV3. Just amazing we haven't found a franchise SS since Ozzie with the might & resources of the most successful & storied franchise in MLB History with the exception of the Yankees. Man ............
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Re: Let's Discuss The Outfield Situation - 8/22/17

Postby R27 » Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:25 am

chevyman58 wrote:Haven't we seen Gyorko play a few times at SS & do a serviceable job? Or am I having another senior-moment memory?

R27, can you access sortable stats by position on that one?

I think Garcia is up too, just thinkin' Gyorko could cover SS a handful of times for rest days, or for an in-game injury until a callup could catch a bus.

Garcia is a far better shortstop than Gyorko. Gyorko could play it here and there, but I wouldn't put him there with Carpenter at 3B, so I don't see the point to put him there.

chevyman58 wrote:Here's another thought - MLB is supposed to be working towards a better spacing of off days. It appears we only have 7 weeks without an off day & it looks like we had 11 last year. Additionally, it looks like we had 2 stretches last year where we had two consecutive weeks with no off days as well. Perhaps a couple makeup games caused that to happen. Point being, if MLB balances off days better, rest opptys easier to accommodate.

R27, info/insight on MLB trying to balance off days? I thought I heard there goal was an off day per week?

I don't know if that's a goal, I think every two weeks is. I think it's no more than 20 days without an off day, and that's the only regulation that I know of. But when you look at usually they do 4 game series' M-T-W-Th and 3 game series' F-Sa-Su you aren't going to get one every week unless you drastically change the length of the season.

chevyman58 wrote:I think we're all hoping DeJong can roll out there for 154 games, hit .290/30/100 & then play every inning of the postseason.
Just like we were hoping Diaz would roll out there this past season for 154 games, hit .300/25/90 & drag us into the World Series.

It's stunning to me that our iconic franchise has been rotating SS's on an annual basis year-after-year-after-year since Renteria with the sole exception of getting away with 2bman Eck there for a short run by surrounding him with the MV3. Just amazing we haven't found a franchise SS since Ozzie with the might & resources of the most successful & storied franchise in MLB History with the exception of the Yankees. Man ............

There's definitely some hope that DeJong can do it. I think there's a few things that give optimism that he can continue to be an everyday player. He's a different kind of hitter than Diaz, so while its an easy comparison to make, it needs to be more of a general one. He also already showed some ability to make adjustments last season, I've read that he adjusted to how pitchers were pitching him. If he can adjust, that's a plus. Diaz was never able to make the adjustment.

It's one of the reasons I really, really, really wanted Hechavarria. You throw him at SS with this lineup and it changes the look of it. Plus defense at 2B, SS, and 3B. Plus bats around the outfield and first base with a big bopper at 3B and an OBP guy at 2B. Good speed, good defense, and a few well placed bats. Really a classically built club.

But DeJong in general plays better defense at shortstop than Diaz did. So, if he were to slump, he's more likely to get time to fix it because he's not hemorrhaging runs in the field like Diaz was. That was really the biggest problem for Diaz. It's not just that he was slumping offensively, but that he was -10 defensive runs saved in June when he was demoted. That -10 defensive runs saved was 34th of 36 shortstops to play at least 500 innings there. DeJong's 0 defensive runs saved slotted in 18th. Right up the middle with JJ Hardy and Troy Tulowitzki.
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