Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:57 am

Lol are you serious? Why would you down play how good Gyorko has been? He has grown into a regular because he has played like one. And I don't know how you can say that losing him isn't really a loss. I'm sorry but that is absurd.

So using that logic, I guess Trout not being in LA wouldn't be a loss to them either outside of the 1 season that they made the playoffs (even though they got swept out right away so maybe that still doesn't count as anything)? Because he won them nothing? C'mon. We both know that is a ridiculous argument.

I get that you think Jay is underrated. And that is fine. But there is no need to make insane points about arguably the best Cardinal position player over the past 2 years to try to justify it. There is plenty of justification without all that garbage.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby chevyman58 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:14 am

What warrants one to immediately attack another's viewpoints as absurdity & garbage? WTF Hardster? Why immediately escalate to demeaning comment & light a fuse for conflict? I haven't belittled your opinions or attacked your viewpoints. Can we not simply have a calm 'discussion'? My first posts of substantial opinion depth in weeks & you immediately have to jump on me with disparaging remarks? WTF warrants that? Man .....................

Angels didn't trade a starter to get Trout, he was homegrown. Apples & oranges.

I'm just saying losing Jay to gain Gyorko wasn't any kind of difference-maker. Also saying that Mo wasn't trading Jay to get a starting 3Bman, he was dumping Jay for a bench player who San Diego was dumping & attractively eating some salary of. Not maligning Gyorko, happy to have him. But he hasn't exceeded the mediocre merry-go-'round we've been turning in CF since JJay left. That's all, not looking for an argument, absurdity or garbage.

What's concerning is that on position players we've not accomplished any substantial upgrades since Berkdawg & Beltran. And in those cases we only netted one prosperous season out of two. But as you look around the 7 positions I don't see encouraging improvements. Gyorko's been a nice surprise but that's been about it. And he's not a huge upgrade over Carp offensively when Carp was there, particularly now that Mo gave away Adams. Settling in with long-term deals from homegrown guys who are average at-best isn't gonna work if you're biggest FA move in years is a Dexter Fowler. Gonna have to get better players.

What's bizarre to me is they gave away Adams because 1B was Carp's forever. 6 weeks later they move Carp to 2B so a AAA guy nobody's ever heard of can slot into 1B. Seriously? Without ever giving Adams a shot after a physically-transforming Winter workout routine? I don't get it.

But a long-term core of Carp, Piscotty, Wong, and a shuttle from Memphis ain't gonna get it done IMO. And what the heck's happened with Diaz? He's hitting worse in Memphis than he was here.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:50 am

chevyman58 wrote:Him not being here would be no loss, we could have missed the postseason & then been a buncha games under .500 at the AS Break just as easily without him. He's won us nothing, zero, zilch.


I attack that viewpoint because it is 100% absurd. It is insane to say that someone who was arguably their best position player isn't a difference maker just because they didn't make the playoffs. The quote above isn't just about the trade, it's about player value, so the Trout thing isn't apple to oranges either. If you say not having Gyorko wouldn't matter since they didn't make the playoffs, you are saying the same thing about Carpenter, Piscotty, Martinez, Diaz, etc. And I'm sorry if it offends you but that is an absurd opinion. If they didn't have Gyorko they would have been much worse last year and this year. That is value. Unless you think that Jay would have been a much bigger difference maker last year, but there is nothing that would make someone think that. We won that trade in a huge way.

Everything else about the team I agree with you on. The offense is missing a bopper or two and can't field worth a damn. And nothing internally in the next couple years will fix it. Gonna have to make a trade or we are gonna be watching bad baseball for the next couple years.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby chevyman58 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:25 am

Open your mind to my stated premise, not the one you created. This started with JJay - WE TRADED AN ESTABLISHED STARTING CF'R TO GET GYORKO AND HAVEN'T FOUND A SUBSTANTIALLY OUTPERFORMING CF'R SINCE, EVEN IN FA FOWLER. THAT IS THE COMPARITIVE OPINION POINT REGARDING GYORKO BEING A DIFFERENCE-MAKER.

Get off the Trout, Carp, Pisciotty, Diaz tangent in your argumentative search to belittle me with outrage and disparaging attacks of absurdity, insanity, garbage or whatever other inflammatory terms you want to throw at me. You're basing them on a unilateral comparative premise you created to find a foundation of fault with my posts. NONE of those players were acquired by trading away an established starting CF'r like we did to get Gyorko. THAT is the premise of my discussion attempt, not the 'garbage' (your acceptable term) premise you made up and are too hateful towards me to realize it.

Yet, I'M the unreasonable, combative one. OK .................. whatever. I should have known better than try to have a calm discussion with you Hardster. Foolish of me to then calmly try to foster reasonable reconsideration even after being unjustly attacked. I'll crawl back into my non-participant hole again.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:44 am

Never said you were combative. Just unreasonable with that quote. Never was outraged so don't know where you got that from. And hateful? Wow. Just look at the quote above and try to justify it. That was my entire point. That's all. None of it was personal until you made it that way with that last post. Feel free to get in the last word but I'm done.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby R27 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:45 am

I'm with chevy, at the core of this the swap of Jay for Gyorko wasn't really a difference making one. San Diego wanted out of Gyorko's contract and the Cards were willing to take a bet. Nobody was like "Oh, yeah, Jedd Gyorko MVP candidate!" when he showed up. And this year he could legitimately have a 7+ WAR season, something the Cardinals haven't had since Pujols. He's even a drastically different player than he was last year. Last year offensively, he and Jay were within half a win of each other when you normalize their playing time. ''

This year has been special for him. He's been a difference maker this year, but he was never expected to be or become one. I keep waiting for the clock to strike midnight on this year because it's going to happen and it's going to get ugly.

chevyman58 wrote:What's bizarre to me is they gave away Adams because 1B was Carp's forever. 6 weeks later they move Carp to 2B so a AAA guy nobody's ever heard of can slot into 1B. Seriously? Without ever giving Adams a shot after a physically-transforming Winter workout routine? I don't get it.

This.

"No room for Adams" and then we move Carpenter to make room for Voit. I really felt Adams did enough last year to be given an opportunity to be the first baseman to open up the season again. Now, I do like Voit's long-term possibility as a MLBer more than a lot of other young guys we have. I think he's much more rounded of a player than anyone the organization has produced in the last few years. Not as much raw power as Adams, but he's got a better plate approach.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby mhardy_03 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:05 pm

Yeah that's reasonable. I agree the trade wasn't meant to be for a difference maker. And we disagree on Jay's value but that's fine too. I do agree that he is more valuable than Grichuk right now.

But it doesn't mean that the team would be no different if Gyorko wasn't here, which is the part that I had the issue with. As I quoted a couple posts ago. Saying that he doesn't matter because the team didn't make the playoffs with him so they also wouldn't without him is the part I find ridiculous. Because if that is the case then there is no player on any non playoff team that "matters." That's the only part of any of this that I thought was crazy. Everything else is completely reasonable.
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Re: Game 85: Marlins @ Cardinals, 7/6/17, 12:45 pm

Postby chevyman58 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:40 pm

mhardy_03 wrote: But it doesn't mean that the team would be no different if Gyorko wasn't here, which is the part that I had the issue with. As I quoted a couple posts ago. Saying that he doesn't matter because the team didn't make the playoffs with him so they also wouldn't without him is the part I find ridiculous. Because if that is the case then there is no player on any non playoff team that "matters." That's the only part of any of this that I thought was crazy. Everything else is completely reasonable.


You're still not considering my repeatedly stated premise that JJay had to leave for Gyorko to be here. THAT'S the key, has been from 1st mention. Not in an independent scenario - that Gyorko or your referenced comps of Carp, Pisciotty, Diaz or even Trout were then not difference-makers. Nobody gave up anybody to get those guys. What's so hard to comprehend in that? R27 got it with no problem. The premise is that JJay-for-Gyorko didn't get us anything substantive to get us over the hump. Not last year, doesn't appear this year.

By comparison we gave up Rasmus for some relief help. We did so primarily due to TLR & Pujols hating him. We got nothing long-term in return, some relief help we all thought were nobodies. But that deal won us a Ring. It provided little thereafter, but it got us a Ring. That deal was a "difference-maker". JJay for Gyorko was not. I'd rather have JJay in CF today then Fowler, regardless of cost savings. Heck, I'd rather have Pham out there.

I simply don't understand the need to immediately attack with belittling terms like insanity, absurd, garbage and then continue to reinforce the tone with more like ridiculous and crazy. Particularly when I tried in reasonable terms to focus on the qualifying premise which, even now, you don't comprehend. And how none of these belittling terms constitute getting 'personal' is beyond me. You seem to stay calm and reasonable with everybody else here.

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